From twallace@trueorigin.org Wed Jul 28 07:43 EDT 1999 Received: from mail.ncifcrf.gov (mail.ncifcrf.gov [129.43.100.100]) by ncisun1-nf0.ncifcrf.gov (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18604 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from floyd.qis.net (floyd.qis.net [209.150.96.22]) by mail.ncifcrf.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA00239 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from trueorigin.org (pm3-balt-139.qis.net [209.150.97.139]) by floyd.qis.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA25200 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <379EEC7B.525887CE@trueorigin.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:41:47 -0400 From: Timothy Wallace Organization: TrueOrigin Archive X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Schneider Subject: Re: TrueOrigin Feedback Response References: <199907280410.AAA20581@kaylor.ncifcrf.gov> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Length: 3476 Status: O Tom Schneider wrote: > Aha! My mistake! I meant to say: > > The entropy of an unisolated system can DECREASE, at the > expense of the rest of the universe. > > I presume you understood this error, or were intending to > point it out... Actually, although I understood what you meant, I followed you in your error, mentally substituting "decrease" for "increase". No harm done. > > Evolutionist theory faces a problem in the second law, > > since the law is plainly understood to indicate (as does > > empirical observation) that things tend towards disorder, > > simplicity, randomness, and disorganization, while the > > theory insists that precisely the opposite has been taking > > place since the universe began (assuming it had a beginning). > > ...The Second Law does indeed indicate that things tend > towards disorder. That is the *total* entropy increases. > Evolutionary theory does not say the opposite. As you sit > reading this message, you are burning food, and your body is > radiating heat, that is, -dS <= -dq/T. This heat is spreading > out. Indeed, it is the very act of it spreading out that > allows you to live at all, or for car engines to run. The > heat eventually escapes to space. Of course, fortunately, the > sun provides a counterbalance. Your original issue had to do with your perception that I did not understand that the entropy of an unisolated system can [de]crease, at the expense of it's surroundings. I don't believe the passage quoted above denies this, nor does the balance of the essay, to my knowledge. I suppose it would be possible to interpret my paragraph (above), isolated as it is, as implying a misunderstanding that an unisolated system's entropy cannot decrease. But taken in the context of the balance of the essay, I believe my understanding is adequately clarified, and I do not (to my knowledge) deny the thermodynamic *possibility* of the entropy decrease you describe. Elsewhere, of course, I believe I do indeed make a distinction between the thermodynamic *possibility* of such an entropy decrease, and the *assumption* of a spontaneous, sustained decrease as a necessary (but unobserved) corollary to evolutionary theory. (This, in connection with the Second Generalized Law.) I have no reason to believe that the former serves to substantiate (or render probable) the latter, except by defining it as thermodynamically "possible". > There are plenty of other places from that point on in your > text that express the same misunderstanding, but I won't list > them unless necessary. You can clear them up yourself, and I > can check your statements if you would like. Please allow me to suggest that we continue focusing on the first paragraph you have cited before moving on. It is not my aim to be facetious or disrespectful, but I still do not see where the "misunderstanding" you describe is manifest in the cited paragraph. Again, I do not mean to be difficult, but it is not wholly clear to me how the essay in general, or the above-cited paragraph in particular, indicates a failure on my part to understand that the entropy of an unisolated system can decrease at the expense of it's surroundings. I appreciate your patience in addressing this issue with me. Kind Regards, Tim :-> -- Timothy Wallace twallace@trueorigin.org http://www.trueorigin.org “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.” Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:35)